In this episode of Happy Here, Wisq CEO Jim Barnett speaks with Cynthia Burks, board member and HR advisor, about belonging and the role of intentionality in building an inclusive culture.
The pandemic brought a series of challenges—and learnings—that we can bring with us into the future, Cynthia says. Jim and Cynthia talk about meaningful connection during the workday, as well as finding a strong sense of psychological safety at work, or in Cynthia’s words, having “permission to be human.”
Find a transcript of the full conversation below, and listen to the Happy Here episode featuring Cynthia Burks on Spotify.
Jim: Welcome everyone. I'm thrilled to be here today with Cynthia Burkes, an exceptional leader in the people and HR world, as well as a valued advisor. Consultant and board member of companies. Most recently, Cynthia was Senior Vice President and Chief Human Resources Officer at Genentech, where she had a brilliant 12 year career in a variety of leadership roles and helped build a truly amazing organization and culture.
Cynthia also has an impressive education. She graduated with a BS from Marquette University. She received her MBA from Thunderbird School of Global Management and also her JD or law degree from the University of San Francisco's School of Law. Throughout her career, Cynthia has focused on creating positive employee experiences and driving engagement across the organizations she serve.
She's been a vocal proponent of creating inclusive environments where diverse ideas, backgrounds, and viewpoints are valued. One where anyone can belong. I can't wait to dig in, but first I'd really love for Cynthia to introduce herself in her own words.
Cynthia: Thanks so much, Jim. It's so wonderful to have an opportunity to chat with you.
So I would say that, you know, one way that I would think about myself is that I am someone who loves the challenge of learning new things. I'm super passionate, as you mentioned around, you know, creating positive experiences for employees because I feel like we spend so much of our time working, it should be a great experience.
So I'm committed to creating circumstances and space for people to see what they can do, um, and to really thrive. That's been a constant theme for me, both professionally and personally.
Jim: Awesome. Thank you so much. I love what you said about willing to be uncomfortable. When I think about leadership. I think that's one of the hallmarks of a great leader.
And you were at Genentech for 12 years. That's really incredible. And of course Genentech is really an iconic company. You know, how, how did you and the broader team at Genentech end up building such a strong culture?
Cynthia: Yeah, well it really is an amazing organization, and you know, I would say, Genentech was successful in creating a positive, successful culture through a number of ways.
One, you know, one of the things I think is important to articulate first is my belief around culture is that culture lives in the spaces in between people, so it lives in between. The employee, the manager, amongst the coworkers. So it lives in those spaces between people. And so only relying on artifacts and rituals really won't enhance the culture for any organization.
So at Genentech, you know, as I think is the case with other successful companies, culture was created through leader. The consistency in actions and behaviors from leaders calling out behavior that wasn't in line with the values of the organization, even when it was hard to do, is really reinforcing and being intentional about the culture, uh, that the organization wanted to create and, and holding people accountable for living to those values.
I think that those were really the keys to success for Genentech.
Jim: Wow, that's really good. Calling out the behaviors. Are there formal things? It sounds like a lot of the culture happened informally, as you said, through values and behaviors and the spaces in between.
But were there also formal things that you did as a people leader to ensure either the culture was consistent or strong or you wanted to change it in a certain way?
Cynthia: Well, you know, when we think about culture and how we reinforce that culture, certainly practices and programs help to reinforce, whether that's your reward system [or something else.]
Certainly we started on day one with our orientation with our employees. We talked a lot about the culture of Genentech. I think it really there's a role that programs and policies play in reinforcing that culture. So again, I mentioned orientation, but also with our leadership excellence programs.
You know, how we spent time with the most senior leaders of our organization, our officers talking about our culture, talking about, the values of our organization. Stood for the meaning that it had, not just for our employees, but also for our communities and the patients that we served. So that, that the, the elements of our culture and meaning in the work that we did were really transparent and very prominent in all of the programs that we had, but also in the fun things that Genentech did.
So, different activities, the gatherings that we had, the idea that leaders needed to be transparent and leaders needed to be vulnerable. So we often found times and opportunities for our leaders to be silly and to make fun of themselves, whether it was dressing up in silly costumes for Halloween or other activities.
So we really wove in some of those core values that we had that reinforced our culture in both the formal programs, but also also the fun activities that took.
Jim: Wow. So it sounds like play was part of the culture there.
Cynthia: Yes. 'Work hard, play hard' was definitely part of the culture.
Jim: I love that.
So I know one of the things that you're really passionate about is creating a culture where people can feel a sense of belonging. So I'd love to talk about a couple of things. One, when you think about belonging, what's top of mind for you? How do you think about belonging? What does it mean to you?
Cynthia: Yeah. Well, you know, maybe I'll answer this from the perspective as an employee and really from the perspective of a Black employee, because I think that has provided a lot of insight. You know, my own personal experience provided a lot of insight to what others might be experiencing and what they were looking for.
So when I think about belonging and my definition of belonging, it's that feeling, that sense that you get that you are a valued member of a community, that you matter, that you're seen, that people care about what you're doing. People think that you're important. Again, that feeling of being valued.
And so when people have that feeling of being part of a community, you know, there's a sense of purpose. You know, I, I know that people count on me. I know that what I do matters. And that translates into how I show up at work. And honestly, how. , if I should say, if I'm able to really do my best work when we're trying to achieve that feeling, um, it really needs to be intentional.
We talk about inclusion and inclusion and belonging really go together. And this really goes back to, um, my comments around the importance of leader. Leaders need to be intentional around creating an environment of inclusion, and they need to be purposeful in their engagement with their employees so that people do have that feeling of belonging.
As a leader, I also know that I don't completely control the other part of the employee's own experience, but I need to be doing whatever I can. To create that feeling of inclusion and being very intentional in how I engage with my teams.
Jim: Can you talk a little bit more about inclusion and belonging?
You know, these terms, diversity, inclusion, equity, and belonging often are, are grouped together, but yet they're all quite different and equally impactful and important. So can you talk a little bit about. How you think about what is inclusion and what is belonging and how they're different, and how are they related?
Cynthia: Yeah, honestly, Jim, I'll give my version of a definition and, and certainly there are many DEIB experts that are well versed on this topic, but when I think of inclusion and belonging and equity, inclusion really is, what do I do? Either as a leader or as an individual to create space for other people to ensure that I am trying to be aware of my own blind spots of where I may not be, where I may be excluding someone, even if that's not my intention.
Belonging really is around the impact. I think that that different behaviors and practices that an organization and individuals have that create that sense for someone help to create the circumstances where people feel like they are a valued member of the community.
And when I think about equity, that's really ensuring that everyone has. To the same treatment opportunities and advancement and equity really aims to, I guess in my perspective, identify and eliminate barriers that prevent that full participation from someone. So that's how I see those three hanging together.
And to me, they really can't be separated. They're all connected and, and you really need one needs to really, as an organization, but also as a leader. Focus on all three of those elements to achieve that experience where people really can do their best work.
Jim: Well, that's great. And of course, without equity, inclusion and belonging, it's very hard to sustain successfully sustain diversity.
Cynthia: Exactly. Because when you think about some of the actions and some of the initiatives, you know, a big part I think of this work is around in increasing representation within organizations and to make sure that we're reaching populations that may not, we may not have been reaching before.
That's super important. But if someone like me comes to an organization, Yeah, sure. I'm there, but if I don't feel like I belong and if I don't feel like I have the same access to opportunities and, and advancement, it's not going to be a place where I want to stay. Right. So I think all of those activities need to hang together for us to really make progress in this area.
Jim: And of course, Inclusion and equity are, are really important components of creating that culture of belonging. Let's talk about equity first. What have you done to create a more equitable culture, a more equitable experience at some of the companies you've been at?
Cynthia: You know, sometimes, you know, we in HR have the best intentions, but we need to be very critical around our policies and practices, even things that we think. Gosh, this is a great, this is a great practice. This is a set successful, but when we apply the lens, when we apply a different lens and look at that practice or policy again, we really need to be critical and say, are we unintentionally creating barriers or are we unintentionally excluding people?
You know, one of the most fundamental things that I think an organization needs to do is. Examine those policies and practices. I'll just take a simple example. Something like an employee referral program where, on the surface, it's like, 'Wow, that sounds fantastic.' It's hard to find people. We have good people, certainly the people that we have can refer people and they're gonna be great.
So I understand the logic to it, but if your organization is already struggling with not having representation either across the board or with certain jobs, your employee referral program is, it could, not necessarily, but it could certainly perpetuate that problem. We know, and this is just psychology, social psychology, we know that, that people, if we look at friends and friend groups and even former colleagues or people you went to school with, they tend to be a lot like you.
Not just racially, but in other dimensions of diversity as well. And so, you know, likely if we re rely on an employee referral program, we're gonna get more of the same, which is not bad, but it may not lead to success in really bringing in different perspectives and experiences into the organization.
So that's one example. It's probably not the most exciting work to do, but it's really fundamental to making a shift, is understanding what the organization is doing to perpetuate some of the gaps that may exist in the organization.
The other thing I would say, I know there's a lot of conversation around understanding biases. It's really important for us to understand sort of the nature of bias, that we all have biases, and to really normalize and accept that I'm a biased person, even if I don't think I am, or even if I don't want to be. I have my own biases. So accepting and understanding bias I think is really important, but it's only important if it's accompanied by particular actions and a commitment on the part of the individual to to develop policies and practices to catch or to minimize the impact of bias in the organization.
So I think that awareness, coupled with actions, and real diligence is also very important to making progress in this space.
Jim: Yeah, and I think you did a great job of, of laying out the multi-dimensions of equity in particular, you know, people sometimes will focus on pay equity, which is also a very important area, but it's much, much broader than that.
Cynthia: Absolutely.
Jim: You mentioned diversity and the importance of diversity. Of course, you know, now there's a lot of data to suggest that more diverse teams are more successful teams. Can you talk about any examples you've seen across your companies where that, that you've seen that?
Cynthia: Yeah. Well, you know, I would say, and this is not necessarily unique to Genentech, I would say that there are a number of experiences that I've seen, especially as we talk about innovation and creativity, we're bringing in. I'll sort of use the definition of diversity that is maybe broader for this example, but I think it applies to all elements of diversity where you bring in someone who has a different educational background or has worked in different places and, and immediately the conversation changes in the room.
And may not always be easy at first. And I think the research also talks about and acknowledges that when you bring in diversity, it can be disruptive because there's not sort of the harmony that comes along with everyone thinking the same, having the same perspective, engaging in the same way.
But once you get past that, you can really make some breakthroughs in terms of thinking differently and doing things differently, and I've seen that so many times. And so when we think about sort of diversity of experiences, work experiences, or diversity, educate of education, I think it's easier for people to understand those examples, but it also applies when we bring in people with.
Life experiences or different perspectives, they might approach a problem in a completely different way. That has nothing to do necessarily with their educational background, but it has to do with their life experience. And so, you know, diversity of thought, diversity of perspective. We know leads to different types of conversations, which can lead to innovation.
And I would certainly say that that applies to all elements of diversity.
Jim: One of the things I like to think about a lot is, what's the role of psychological safety in enabling that thought diversity and other types of diversity?
What have you seen as that role of psychological safety?
Cynthia: Yeah. Well, you know, honestly, if someone is stressed or worried about, 'Can I show who I really am? Can I be honest about what I'm struggling with? Can I have real and meaningful conversations with my manager? With my leader?' That takes up so much mind space. It's hard to really do your best work when you're preoccupied with other things.
And I'll just give you a just a personal example, you know. In the last few years when there's been so much focus on issues around race, and certainly when fresh after the murder of George Floyd and some of the trials and all of what was happening there, it was very distracting for many, many people.
And for someone to have to come to work and pretend like they weren't sad or angry, or. In any other way, distracted by the events that were happening in the world that that person is not going to be able to concentrate. And so, one of the moments that I remember most in the last couple, you know, in those last three years or so, I remember I got a text from my boss, my CEO, saying that he wanted to talk to me.
And I thought, oh goodness, what's going on? Do we need to respond to something? What happened? Because he didn't say much in the text, so I thought, let me call him quickly. And I said, 'Hey, what's going on? What do you need?'
He said, 'You know, there was something that happened in the news that was pretty significant' and he said, 'I don't need anything. I just wanted to see how you're doing, and I imagine this could be a hard day for you, and so I just wanted to check in. I don't know if I know the right things to say because I don't have your experience, but I just wanted you to know that I could understand that this could be hard.'
And so in that moment, it didn't take away whatever I was feeling, but I felt seen and heard and I felt safe, and I knew that I could have a conversation to say, 'Hey, I need a few minutes.' To me, it was just giving permission to be human. And to me that's what psychological safety is all about.
And we need to lean into more of those conversations so that people can just be who they are. And then if they need to set it aside to focus on work or whatever else is going on, it just makes it so much easier to do when leaders create that space.
Jim: I loved all of that, but I especially love permission to be human.
Let's talk a little bit more about the pandemic. Our podcast theme is a lot around belonging and happiness at work, and the pandemic brought a lot of challenges to individuals and teams around connecting and. We've seen all the data showing high incidences of isolation, quiet, quitting, the Great Resignation.
It seems like there's almost a theme of the week, people trying to describe the sense of the challenges around connection over the last last couple of years. And can you talk a little bit about what you saw as some of the challenges of people connecting during that period?
Cynthia: You know, I would say we were caught unprepared, which probably sounds like, of course at the end, nobody was prepared for that. I would say that, as a leader, I feel like I maybe wasn't on top of my game because we could have anticipated, as we think about remote work and people working differently and things like that, we could have anticipated and been more ahead of the game.
Wow, this is probably gonna be a trend that continues. Or, gosh, we have global teams who don't see each other already. How do we ensure that people are connecting? So I don't feel like we have the good tools or ways of connecting that we should have had. Period. I would say, I think the challenges that the remote working or working apart presented were just leaders and managers didn't understand how to talk about this and how to engage with people differently when it wasn't the, 'I'm walking past and checking in.'
So to me, this was really a call for a different way of leading, which quite frankly, I think we should have been thinking about even before. I will say though, Jim, I do believe that there was a leveling of sorts that occurred. I think the research also supports this for people like me who are introverts, I felt so powerful during the pandemic because I finally felt like, 'Oh, we're all the same.'
We're all boxes on the screen. And so I didn't feel like I had to compete in the same way. So in some respects, and I, and I think this is true for others as well, there was something very powerful about the experience of how we needed to connect during this time. That worked for some people. And I think the research also talks about how people in communities who feel marginalized sometimes, going back to this issue of belonging, also felt, 'Wow, in some respects, this is better because maybe I don't have to deal with uncomfortable situations or things like that at work when we're on a screen.'
So I, I think the challenge for us is how do we take what we learned from this experience as we move into more different ways of working and some people in the office and some at home, and some never coming into the office.
How do we take what we learned to go back to really creating an environment of inclusion and belonging for everyone. I mean, this was an incredible opportunity for us to learn. And hopefully we can think about how do we enable meaningful connections between people that aren't tied to Zoom boxes, which, by the way, are very effective, but that's not the only way, or it's not tied to, you know, project tracking tools.
But how else do we really connect meaningful meaningfully with people when we don't see them, you know, getting a cup of coffee.
Jim: That's great. Yeah, it's definitely been a challenge for everyone. I love your thought about sort of the world resetting in the direction of introverts.
Can you talk a little bit for our listeners about what are employee resource groups and how have you seen employee resource groups help with any of the themes we've talked about today? Belonging, inclusion, and happiness at work.
Cynthia: Yeah. Well, when we think about people, I mean, even if I think about my own experience, I mean certainly there's the, the organization, right?
And are you committed to the organization? Is it meaningful? Is it, is it a good place for you? Are you, are you engaged in the work generally? I mean, that's super important, but if I think about my day-to-day experience at work, it's really. Smaller groups and smaller groups that I feel like I have something in common with.
So when I need to, you know, when I've had a bad meeting or if I feel like, oh, that didn't go well, or, I don't know if so-and-so really heard me, or if they're, you know, respect what I have, you know, all of those experiences. It's nice to have that best friend or smaller group, like an employee resource group where I can debrief or talk about something else that's not related to the thing at work, that's challenging for me.
So I think those groups really are many cultures within an organization and they provide a place of, again, belonging, inclusion and support. That's really important to the overall experience of employees.
Many employee resource groups do a lot of things. Some are very connected to the mission and work of the organization. You know, for example, at Genentech, the employee resource groups. Provided perspective around. How do we reach certain, certain populations? How do we ensure, for example, that our research that we're doing for potential therapies for patients that the, the, that we're researching on a diverse pool of people.
I mean, so they were very involved with the strategy of the business, but they also just served as a place for community. Smaller communities for people within a larger organization. And I, and I think those smaller communities are really important, especially if they're connected to things that you feel passionate about, whether it's cycling or, you know, your particular ethnic background or whatever it might be.
II think those groups play a very important role to the experience for people.
Jim: Awesome. Thank you so much. Well, this has really, really been terrific talking to you today. I learned so much.
I'd love to end with a question. My mission in life is to help people be happier together at work. And so I'd love to ask you, is there one or potentially two things that you do in life to be happier?
Cynthia: That's a great question. I would say two things. One is being intentional, really thinking about how am I spending my time, you know, both proactively, but also reflecting on how I spend my time and thinking about, you know, where there were activities or things that brought me joy and the things that, eh, maybe, maybe was a drain in energy. And while I may not be able to get rid of those things that were a drain in energy, how do I manage them differently, whether it's the time of day or how I think about them, or how I frame those activities where I could bring, more joy.
So yeah, I think the intentionality makes a big difference for me.
Jim: Thank you so much.
